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Good luck! Makes me really appreciate the beautiful apartment I rented in Lucca two years ago.
Thanks Kathryn!
I have had much better experiences with short-term rentals than long-term ones, in Italy.
Great post. We also encountered the same difficulties. In the end, we decided not to purchase property here until we were absolutely committed to making Italy a permanent home. The resale of any property was also a concern for us. I had it a lot easier in that there was a vacant place owned by my husband’s family. Not ideal in any way…. unnecessary walls, heinous tiles everywhere, outdated everything. we spent 7 months renovating it – a whole other experience to write about!
Ciao Ro, Thanks for your comment and for letting me know I’m not crazy!
Yes, I have been told/warned quite a bit that resale can be a problem, which is really a bummer to hear because I’d rather not rent forever. But to put all my savings into a house and not be able to sell it, “if” I needed to, is not a good scenario.
Same here. I’ve been looking for about 2 years. Is it too much to ask for a “real” kitchen?
Oh my gosh, two years? I’m sorry. Where are you looking?
first in Rome, then Tuscany then Umbria. Now I’m expanding my search to Abruzzo. I went to look at one place and by the time I got there, they jacked up the price! I’m so tired of real estate agents.
Lorraine, I completely get what you are saying and feeling. Please stay in touch and let me know how it goes.
Check out Sicily! We bought an apartment there 5 years ago, with stunning terrace views of the Ionian Sea & a bright empty space for the kitchen. Lots of headaches later, and an opening cut into it from the living area, and we had a lovely, functioning kitchen. Is it as large as ours at home in the US? No, but the view from my large kitchen window cannot be beat. Look forward to your remodel posts.
good article. Last year, I left Lucca for Genova. It was my third time coming to Genova to live. In-between were stops in Rome, Ravenna and Lucca. I was thinking of buying something here in Genova because I wanted to have a feeling of being home. Yes, I know that home is where the heart is, but in this case, I wanted somewhere to get my mail.
But for now I’m renting. A lot to understand. Furnished/Unfurnished? Oh, and you want unfurnished? Did I mention that in many cases you have to go to the store and buy your kitchen appliances? That’s right, many apartments don’t come with kitchen appliances (vuoto). People take them with them. So, you have to buy all that and pay to have it installed. Same goes for light fixtures. People take all their light fixtures when they move. Who does that?
And what kind of contract comes with the place? Transitorio (yours for up to 18 months, typically) prima casa (you get to establish residency-which means you can get a doctor and residency card. And, you may have to for pay for gas, water, lights, maybe garbage. Depends if you get central heat or autonomo) or seconda casa (no residency, no doctor. Typically central heat)
Let’s say you find something you want to see. You contact the agent. You can send an email if you never want to hear from him or her or you can call or stop in. Let’s say you make contact and go to see a place. If you don’t take it on the spot, they may never show you anything else. There’s no application process and calling your employer and submitting credit reports. If you want it, you express that and typically it’s on hold for you. Then, you go to the office with documentation that you can afford it. The fact that you may have a ton of money in the bank doesn’t impress them. They want to see your pay stub. Documentation that you are on Social Security seems to please them.
And what about getting into a place once you say you want it? Typically, first month’s rent, a couple months deposit and the realtor’s commission which varies. Typically, one month’s rent and possibly a tax. When I was in Lucca, the agency got one month’s rent and 22% tax.
So, let’s say you get a prima casa so that you can get a doctor (go to the ASL office) and residency (go to the commune).
For next time, folks. happy hunting.
Omg, just reading this (and Chandi’s post) gives me agida! I’m planning on renting a place the three months I’ll be in Italy later this year and even though it’s more expensive, I’m going the Airbnb/VRBO route. I am NOT a patient person, especially for the inanity that is Italian bureaucracy for ANYthing needing to get done.
I applaud yours and Chandi’s patience! I would have made a terrible Job. 😉
Ciao Tom!
Thanks for sharing this. I appreciate it and I’m sure my readers will too.
Yeah, the 22% agency fee is really high. I have always tried to find a rental in Italy without an agency, but it’s not easy. For more on renting in Italy, see my post here: http://paradiseofexiles.com/italian-rental-properties/
Some of this is certainly true. As an American living in the deep south, i.e. Salento, for the past 4 years I’ve found there is a different approach to the use of email vs. the US. Luckily, my girlfriend is Italian and could quickly deal with phone inquiries. We purchased a house (i.e. apartment/condo) two years ago and had a good agent, though per your article she wasn’t an American-style agent. During the search I was struck by the lack of professional (or semi-professional) photos and also how the houses were never “cleaned up” for viewing. Often, of course, the homes down here have been vacant for awhile as the children are just trying to sell the property they inherited. Anyway, one quickly gets used to this, and looks beyond the mess.
Hi Tim, thanks for joining the discussion. An interesting topic for sure.
A year and a half ago I spent a month in Lecce with the goal of looking at properties and getting to know the area, as I realized it was more affordable than Tuscany, which is the region I’d lived in 2x in the past and the region I was attached to.
I ended up choosing Tuscany again, knowing it is pricey but wanting what it offers. I need to work I’m not retired. In Florence, I can use my masters in Florentine Renaissance history for work.
Hello Chandi, regarding the ability to resell your property, I think that is always a concern and it’s no different here. However, in this area one does not have to put their life savings into buying a home. There are many properties vacant, especially outside Lecce and along either coast, i.e. the Adriatic or Ionic sea. The Adriatic side is less populated and there are many available houses (standalone) near Frigole up to Casalabate, for instance. The problem is that there are few amenities, such as stores, bars, etc., and many of those are closed in the winter. And, again, many of the houses are just vacant. But the prices are amazingly low for being so close to the sea. In the surrounding countryside you can also find houses with land that also will not require your life savings. In the city of Lecce, the prices, of course, are higher, but still low compared to the north. Tourism continues to increase here and I’m frequently amazed by the number of people in the center even in the middle of winter on weeknights. I know several people who are catering to tourists via small businesses or B&B rentals, etc., and are getting by. (There are very few, if any, available jobs in this area, so people focus on creating opportunities.) We found an amazing apartment/condo, albeit small, in a building that is only a 5-10 minute walk to the center. However, since we are one of the ground-floor units we own the very large garden/patio. It’s probably 3 times the size of our house. We did a lot of renovation, but even with those costs it was relatively inexpensive overall. Because of its proximity to the center and the large garden, we would be able to resell it. But again, if we had bought a house away from the city I would imagine it would be more difficult to sell. But we didn’t approach the purchase necessarily with that in mind as we wanted to own instead of renting, and a place that was close to a school for my girlfriend’s 12-year-old son. Anyway, I’ve grown to appreciate this area for a number of reasons over the past several years. And we have a few ideas to create some income so we may buy another property. I’m not sure if I exactly answered your question, but perhaps my limited insight helps.
Ciao Tim,
Basically what I have been told is that re-sale IS different in here in Italy, that the market here is not liquid like in the US and that re-sale is a much bigger concern here.
You mention lack of jobs in the south and that’s one reason I am trying to aim for Florence. Particularly because of my degree in Florentine Renaissance history, which I’d love to use. But good to hear your take on things down in Puglia!
good article Chandi. It does make me concerned and I can’t help but say, “are you sure Florence if worth it?” I’m glad you’re getting feedback from others in different parts of Italy. I know how much Florence makes sense. Some people don’t care much about their personal space, but you are not one of them and this is possibly your long term HOME space where you need to feel you enjoy being IN that space, cooking, living etc. IF you had to go to a cheaper place in Italy, could you still get to Florence to work? It just sounds and looks so bad in Florence from your description and pictures….
Hey Wendy,
Those descriptions and pictures would be the same in cities larger than Florence and in towns smaller than Florence, like Lucca where I presently am. Most apartments in most towns in Italy were built hundreds of years ago and most in my price range have not been updated and have the horribly outdated bathrooms, etc.
I agree with what you are saying that if I consider the countryside I’d have more house for my money. The problem is, I have been told for re-sale that it is very very hard to sell in the countryside and that if I want to be careful about re-sale, I should buy in the historic center of a popular city. And, getting a driver’s license is a royal pain and I’d need a car in the countryside and as a single woman I would likely feel more isolated in the countryside. And, relying on public transport to get to Florence (sometimes to be at the Uffizi at 8:00am) is not realistic.
Great post! So true. My washing machine in Florence was outside. My kitchen in Milan was in a space the size of a closet (but it had a window!). My washing machine in one apartment in Milan was in the bathroom, in another it was in a closet. My mother in law lives in the south. When she cooks in her kitchen, her back is about three inches from the wall. There are no windows. But she doesn’t want to open it up because then people might see the mess! (As if she ever leaves it messy! :)) Now we are renting a place in Avellino… I chose it because it has a huge kitchen with a window (promptly bought an island!) and -gasp- a laundry room! It’s a tiny laundry room, but still so nice! It’s not our permanent home but it’s very nice for now! However, there are almost no real windows, just window-doors so between those and the radiators there’s practically no room for furniture along the walls. We are getting ready to start looking at houses again … already bracing myself for the tiny kitchens, bad layouts, mansardi, ugly tile floors and bathroom walls etc that are sure to be in our price range. ????
Hi Jackie,
Love your comment. Regarding your mention of “bathroom walls” I didn’t want my post to have too long a litany, so I didn’t tackle bathrooms, but I sure know what you mean. I have seen literally the ugliest bathrooms ever during my searches for apartment rentals or for property to buy, here in Italy. How did such ugly tiles that are pepto-bismol pink or barf brown even get made in a country as artistic as Italy?
This is such an interesting article! As a Realtor in Denver Colorado, navigating our hot market with buyers and sellers, this article makes me very THANKFUL!
Hi Chandi – which service did you use for your short-term rentals? I REALLY want to use AirBnB (or some facsimile thereof) this Fall (Bologna or Lucca at the top of the list), but they’re a bit pricey for me this time.
TIA,
Wynne
I have used Trip Advisor, Booking.com and Air BnB. The first two have often been a bit cheaper. Try Italian sites like subito.it
Thank you! Booking.com not fruitful thus far, but I’ve barely scratched the surface there. And I never even knew that Trip Advisor listed rentals! Am familiar w/ subito.
Thanks again…much research ahead!
I feel your pain. After an exhaustive house hunt that lasted for years (and realtors that refused to cal back, much less not send an email) I truly appreciate the American system.
With that said, this article is a reminder of why I love Milan. I’ve seen kitchens with islands and even lived in a home with a dedicated laundry room.
Oh wow, your house hunt lasted years? Where you primarily searching? Did you end up buying in Milan?
Yes, the Italian woman I spoke of in the post, who was enthusiastic about American kitchens, said that she was starting to see open-concept kitchens with islands in Milan. It was so nice for me to see her enthusiasm about it. Made me feel like I’m not off my rocker.
Great read. I can relate to what you are talking about here.
Last year my fiance and I were looking for apartments to rent in Tuscany countryside and we can through so many crazy apartments. One of them had the toilet in the shower, literally. In others, the windows were just big enough for my cat to sit in.
The design of so many of these places was so poorly thought out. I was beginning to get anxious because we had seen so many that just weren’t comfortable. Interestingly enough we had 6 different agents and we ended up finding our perfect flat through a friend.
I have learned that word of mouth is the best way to find something good. A friend of a friend tells a co-worker who’s aunt just moved away (or more likely passed) and boom first comes first served.
It was so crazy, being a California girl myself and also a person who wants instant gratification I was totally out of my element. Luckily my husband is Italian so he knew how to handle it. But I dread the day we begin to look for a place to buy! haha…
Hi, yes, I prefer word of mouth for finding a rental, versus using an agent. So far, for my rentals in Italy I have managed to do that. The agency fee of a month of rent + 22% tax is very high for how little they do. Yes, a bit easier for you having an Italian husband. Luckily my Italian is good and I manage but it does get exhausting dealing with complicated things in a language that you did not grow up with.
For me it is not an “instant gratification” desire. For me it’s an enormous need to have a place that is mine, that is restful and attractive and nurturing. I have simply moved way too much. It was one thing in my twenties. I didn’t care. In my 30s I started wanting a house and I got one for the first time. But in my forties I divorced and I ended up moving 9 times in the past 6 years. (Three of those were international moves.) At this point I am simply exhausted and almost feel like I literally cannot keep dealing with moving and with renting funky places.
Great post! I can totally relate to requesting an email but instead are flooded with phone calls. Or worse, you ask, while on the phone to send you a photo of XYZ to your email, you provide the email address, twice. They then send 9 photos to your WhatsApp number, eliminating your data/GB for the month. Sigh.
Ciao Jennifer, good to hear you can relate.
Chandi,
Just wanted to say thanks for the article and thanks for making me laugh about the crazy parts of living here. And to heck with the humorless haters on FB. Caspita! You made it clear that you love almost everything about being here and that is why you’re doing all this work! We’re looking in Florence too and I keep saying “what is with these terrible photographs? these kitchens? (in a country that adores food and cooking?!) a shower stall as skinny as a broomstick?”
I think most people from the States visit on holiday and have little idea as to what the real living and a true real estate hunt here will be like. Thanks and good luck finding a place.
Hey Sabine,
Yeah, I got reamed in some comments on FB. Ah well, that’s what happens when you post opinions on social media. People are very quick to be hyper critical these days.
Very true that living here is quite different from being on holiday here. Thanks for your nice comment!
Well written! Yes, I know the point. Its just simply one of the things, where – as an expat – you have to change some ideas about your dream country. Welcome in reality!
At the end of the day, you can solve anything, just be flexibly enough.
Thank you for information and your good article. I like so much Italy!